YIP-57: Funding Yearn's Future

In the planning channel, I proposed a second YIP that can be voted on simultaneously, like a dual item ballot, alongside the Mint proposal.

YIP: Burn the mint keys if the Mint (YIP xx) passes
The wording can be contingent only if the Mint proposal passes (For: Mint then Burn Keys, Against: Mint, then don’t Burn Keys and further discuss options)

This would allow us to have really high engagement for voting on two important issues at once. Since the snapshot poll was already taken a long time ago, we can immediately do an official vote on key burn. This would help involve many participants who commented they would for For minting, but only if there was a burn. It also would demonstrate a huge trust in the community/wisdom of the crowds and greatly accelerate the process—regardless of outcome, this shows the most willingness to engage all sides in a historic double vote. If the vote fails, keep keys as is but we can discuss other options like timelocking or engage in further debates.

Thoughts?

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Agree - although I would structure it as a multiple choice answer. Since this would be a signaling poll the main purpose should be measuring sentiment and gathering ideas from the community. The details can be refined later.

If YIP XX passes and the Mint goes ahead, our next step should be:
A) Burn the Keys
B) Place under timelock
C) Do nothing for now, other priorities to focus on

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I understand that YFI need to have competitive advantage. But, minting more YFI will be a negative pressure.

Using 2%/20% fee scheme is better, use it for incentive. Then use it to BABY program, and allocate the bought back YFI for incentive. It will be more success for yfi then printing new token.

YFI need to have higher price, and bigger TVL.

I have read, community of yearn offer to match up to 20 YFI until 1000 YFI to be raised. Maybe, if the donation by community is set up to donate some holding for treasury to reach up to 1000 YFI, it will be better as it will not increase the inflation and will not change current Economic model

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Since w/e we say will be taken into account when formulating the next proposal… then (I might edit later to add more ideas):

  • I really don’t like the 6666 number. It sounds like a meme, but Yearn should sound professional. I think we should mint 10k, 25% of which going to the current developers and other important contributors, vested for 5 years - therefore 5% per year of 10000 $YFI per year.
  • We should be able to lock the vested funds of any dev. Otherwise they have the option to stop contributing relative to the share of tokens that they would receive in the future. No one should be getting a guaranteed yearly drop. After all, TVL has been going down, especially relative to our competitors, and we’ve missed many big farming opportunities out there. We’ve already been rewarding with salaries for some contributors, a better fee structure for strategists, “Buyback and Build Yearn”, and more.
  • @andre.cronje should receive 1000 of the 2500 $YFI.
  • Don’t burn the mint capability. That’s like handicapping the Yearn Ecosystem. If $YFI reaches 1 million per token in 3 years, then another 10k mint would be ten f###ing billions, and we could use it for crazy stuff like buying a controlling share in Deutsche Bank.
  • Whoever built the current UI… maybe don’t reward him that much.
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three questions:

  1. treasury collects the money, if the amount is above certain threshold (i believe used to 500,000 USD) , what happens to the amount in excess of 500,000? how is going to be distributed?

  2. is the 20% incentive fee charged on gross returns or excluding a) money market rate 2) transaction/liquidity providing fees? meaning that 20% is only charged on liquidity/token mining activities?

  3. based on your illustration calculation you are assuming a gross return of 26.7% ??? please see below my calculation: because 2% mgt fee = 699,237 so performance of 20% (1,867,288) = 2.67 times of 2% mgt = 5.37% and then 5.37/20% = 26.7%

Epic discussion and mobilization of our community’s collective intelligence. I am going to root for the contributors and vote for the proposal. My personal journey into crypto live and die by Yearn.

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It has been amazing to see all the support and thought going into this. While the majority is in favor of this YIP, it is clear that burning the minting keys is where the community needs to have more discussion. I’ve invited all those who requested to burn the minting keys to a YFI Community Telegram Channel set up by @tracheopteryx to discuss a supplemental YIP for burning the keys (apologies if I missed anyone).

The purpose of this group is to clearly define the pros and cons of a mint key burn, discuss other options that have been suggested here, such as mint key timelock, locking behind a higher governance vote requirement, or locking “sacrifice”, and finally, draft a Mint Key Burn YIP.

All are welcome. DM if interested.

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I’ve since come around on not burning the mint function for a few reasons (mainly the token migration workaround). The remaining concern is needing assurances of an appropriate vesting schedule over years. If the community feels like it has adequate controls on the remaining treasury $120M (at current prices), I am ok with it.

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I added two more to my list:

  • We should be able to lock the vested funds of any dev. Otherwise they have the option to stop contributing relative to the share of tokens that they would receive in the future. No one should be getting a guaranteed yearly drop. After all, TVL has been going down, especially relative to our competitors, and we’ve missed many big farming opportunities out there. We’ve already been rewarding with salaries for some contributors, a better fee structure for strategists, “Buyback and Build Yearn”, and more.
  • Whoever built the current UI… maybe don’t reward him that much.
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The Purpose of the Fund / 基金的目的

Fundraises and donates to those who contribute to the yfi ecosystem, including individuals, projects, and other organizations and activities. / 非盈利性基金,主要是筹集资金,并捐给为比特币生态做出贡献的相关个人、相关项目以及其他形式的组织和活动等。

  • Any person can donate to the fund. The donations cannot be used for any commercial purpose. / 任何人都可以捐赠,捐赠不可带任何商业目的,基金不承诺为捐赠人做任何商业目的的宣传。
    • Donations can not be revoked after the grant. The donors can not refund the contributions for any reason. Otherwise, they will be listed on the blacklist. / 捐赠后不得出尔反尔,不得以任何理由和形式索取捐赠资金,否则列入黑名单公示。
  • The fund will donate to the done or project after a comprehensive assessment, and it will publicize the list of data or projects. / 经过综合评定后会对受捐赠人或项目进行捐赠,同时公开受捐赠者或项目名单。
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I am ready to vote for this proposal, charming community, love all of you, supporters and opponents.

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Intro

I’m new to this governance forum, so I recognise that I’m an outsider and probably missing a good deal of context in the decision making here, so take what I say with a pinch of salt. My background is in academia (Physics, Maths, Education) and institutional governance, which I’ve recently bailed out of to develop a crypto governance and voting start up. I’ve been designing token systems for a long while and believe DAOs are going to be transformative for the future of work and finance.

This, what is happening right here ITT, is an important moment in decentralised governance IMO and is a reality shifting moment for yearn (potentially a really bullish one). So I thought I would drop by and throw my two pennies in.

Position: As a team we’re YFI holders, we’re bullish on the yearn ecosystem and bullish on DAOs and DeFi generally. We have skin in the game. You could argue we have some vested interests on governance generally and I personally have a bias towards quadratic voting based systems and a “governance optimisation” approach.

General Thoughts

Firstly, it’s clear that yearn are entering into a post meme era of its token economics. I personally felt the 30k cap completely arbitrary and the justification for an inflation on the token system for a dev treasury is a sensible idea. The fact that this proposal includes market analysis and justification for its inflation schedule is a significant improvement of 30k “because meme”. It was also clear that the 30k stuck not because of an actual decision but because of lack of resolution on an open question. It looks like we’re on the way to resolving that open question.

The fair launch process struck me from day one as a not all that sensible approach, without any tokens in reserve it’s very difficult to maintain appropriate incentive alignment in a sustainable fashion into the future, which it is clear that the dev team have experienced first hand. However, it was unarguably successful up to this point, and represented an important shift of the Overton window in the space from excessive pre-mines and team allocations, which Andre himself has mentioned is a large threat to token economies (Unchained Podcast). There’s clearly a need for a balance.

I’ve watched yearn with interest (my analysis of the governance chat here is referenced in the proposal) as an example of a network that shifts away from the rather closed minded governance minimisation, “code is law” narrative that makes sense for Bitcoin but little else. Still, this pendulum can swing too far and if you’re looking for a governance optimisation “sweet spot,” it can be all to easy to swing into rapid governance decisions that spiral into chaos, confusion and / or centralisation of power.

I’ll run over my admittedly rushed and lightweight analysis of the discourse in this thread and use that to make some suggestions for going forward.

Discourse

Of the 129 posts in this debate so far, there exists some obvious emergent themes, I’ll go through them and present my rough figures for how prevalent they are in the thread.

Support - 10

There is around 10 posts that simply support the proposal in its entirety and lend their good will and support to the dev team, with the general sentiment that “a car with no fuel cannot move forward,” and “long term, this is very good for the project.” There are maybe 3-4 direct opposition posts and generally the discourse is largely supportive of the direction of the decision for a mint.

Too Much - 19

There was however, around 19 posts signalling their general feelings that the quoted 6,666k YFI mint was too large, with many people struggling to swallow the $213m (current spot price) of potential market sell pressure that might ensue. Some of these felt that the 6,666k was arrived at quickly with 3,333k another meme worthy suggestion from early in the week arriving and vanishing quickly.

Vesting - 17

17 posts wanted far greater detail on the vesting schedules for these minted tokens. Will the ~$70m landing in core team hands in the near future be vested or fully liquid, on what schedule? There was a few suggestions for how that can be done.

Mint Burn - 19

A lot of the discussion ended up getting cornered by the debate about what to do with the minting keys following this proposal and although people weren’t overly negative about the emission schedule itself, a fair amount of people wanted to know if this was the end of the minting. Somewhere in the middle a new proposal was formed for separating this discussion out.

Process - 33

This is a broad category, but probably the most significant topic of debate was on how the governance itself is working, has worked or will work in the future. Questions of amending proposals, how previous votes had influenced this one (including confusion over Andre’s burn proposal) etc. The most major of which was whether the BABY proposal still stands, or is still relevant after this one, or if it’s both, is it excessive etc. Others raised concern of the presence of the Compensation Working Group, how this would function, how transparent it would be etc.

Suggestions

Firstly, there is some excellent debate in here and it’s proof there is a strong core community of people interested in the governance and future of the yearn ecosystem, which is very good news. It’s important that the yearn team engage with these signals fully to keep these people on board. If they’re here in your governance forum, they’re holders, they’re users, they’re your people. Make them feel listened too.

Suggestion: produce a coherent team response to the emerging themes as a group if signatories. These questions will come back in the future, create a resource you can point to.

This proposal is hot on the heels of BABY and did feel a bit rushed from an outsiders perspective. I’m sure the internal work and debate that’s gone into this is astronomical, but do be mindful that external stakeholders aren’t privy to that decision making. This and the burning of the minting keys feel like overlapping issues that got enveloped into the discussion here and it diluted the decision making coherence a touch.

Suggestion: Propose two subsequent proposals, “burn minting keys” and “review BABY” following this YIP to resolve those hanging issues down the line. It’s kicking the can down the road, but that’s fine.

The worries about the vesting schedules are well warranted. There’s some huge question marks around whether these new tokens are hitting the market in the short term. Any new liquid tokens landing in core team hands following the mint will exist in an X-way prisoners dilemma, where the first dev to dump first gets the best payout and the last gets the lowest.

Suggestion: Clarify the vesting schedules before the vote. The details on individuals can be left in private, but the “total new tokens liquid” Vs time, can be collapsed into a single schedule that provides assurances that the maximum possible in-flow of new tokens into the market is X (less the whatever the team hold). We have contracts for something we call cliff-linear vesting which you may find useful, balloon payment in X months, remainder vested linearly for Y years. You could honestly 3X the entire supply if you manage supply shocks with vesting appropriately. Total amounts minted matter less than the market impact that they create. Transparent team vesting, along with assurances that the treatment of the remaining 2/3rds of the treasury will be distributed transparently will put the “too much” claim to bed.

The creation of a working group and committee feels a bit centralising and a significant departure from the exit to the community philosophy that yearn started with. Be careful not to take too much of the important decision making behind close doors. Yeah, the work gets done in small groups, but don’t confuse challenging questions from the community with bikeshedding.

Suggestion: Provide more detail on this group including who’s on it and why. Get some critical third parties (potentially even non token holders) to sit on it to provide assurances of fairness and clear arguments for decentralisation.

Processes are still a little woolly, hence some of the prevailing confusion in this thread. YIP-55 is an improvement, but what counts as quorum is still rather unclear. At what point do holders have to get their tokens into the governance vault in advance of the snapshot? For example, we’re just holding our tokens. How long do we have to get the tokens into contention for the voting? One user raised questions about the gini-coefficient and this is an important point especially for governance tokens. If the signatories of this YIP can out vote the community to approve it, then quorum is too low and the proposal is a fait accompli making this whole exercise pointless. It appears BABY was passed with less than 3% of the tokens in play.

Suggestion: Add a pre-snapshot rallying period and announce the snapshot through the official channels so there’s a clear opportunity for people to have their tokens in contention for the vote. I wouldn’t have know that the tokens need to be in a governance vault (which BABY promises to retire IIRC) unless I’d been digging in detail through these forum posts. You want a high turn out for this vote, it’s an important one.

Summary:

Overall, I’m supportive of the proposal, but have some questions about processes from here on. The 6,666k is aggressive as pointed out elsewhere, but that can be totally fine as long as the market risk is offset by a transparent vesting schedule. You may find sentiment could swing against you if it looks like a dev dump race is in effect. If this is handled correctly, yearn with a treasury is potentially an order of magnitude more valuable than one without one, but getting current believers rekt could be a hard hill to climb.

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Awesome post. This guy really gets it.

Hi all, I was one of the most vocal participants here that announced I would be voting no unless a mint-burning proposal was also attached. After more discussion within the YFI Key Burn YIP telegram about the intent of a minting key burn, our options and optimal governance procedures, I will be voting for this proposal and starting a new thread (pending a passing vote here) to discuss a potential minting key burn and alternatives. Please be on the lookout for that discussion thread.

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Is there a typo in Chinese which says Bitcoin?

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Great post! I believe core contributors are working on a transparent and incentive-aligned vesting schedule https://twitter.com/bantg/status/1353390918192287746?s=20

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So, the whole 30,000 yfi and fair launch narrative was just a hollow story? I like the yearn interface and have been accumulating yfi, but am now understanding why I see UNI, AAVE, SUSHI, etc head 20%+ higher over the last few hours whil YFI sits flat. Aren’t the contributors paid a market salary? Can’t they buy yfi like everyone else? Didn’t the BABY proposal (which I was completely in support of) get approved to send ALL earnings to contributors for foreseeable future? These continuous “we have to dillute to reward devs” YIP’s have completely blown the investment thesis that brought many to the project. I, like I’m sure many based on recent performance versus other similar defi projects, are wondering when this movement stabilizes and people focus on making the project a success. In the end, I’m guessing the whole thing dies as soon as Andre gets sick of this constant unreasonable pressure from token holders coupled with the demand for $200M incentives for people getting paid to do a job. It’s sad, but not really all that surprising. Damn.

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Hi all, due to multiple requests we have decided to give voters some more time to stake their YFI before launching the snapshot vote.

We will launch the vote on Thursday, so please make sure to have your YFI staked before then!

The vote will go for 5 days after that, but to participate YFI has to be staked before the snapshot is taken on Thursday.

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Money is an existential problem for every enterprise…the solution is to earn it…or in this case (as is the case in the fiat system), print/mint it. I already gave my perspective via Discord when $100M was being considered (now we’re up to $200M), so will just leave this here. Like I say below…it will never be enough and human nature will prevail. Yearn (and crypto in general) is entering into the dangerous realm of fiat solutions and traditional team allocation tokenomics…diluting and damaging the brand…

Perspective from an angel with decades of investment experience and someone who mined my first BTC in 2013…

Can we finally put the whole “YFI is a valueless gov token” BS CYA party line to bed now? Never did have much credibility, but now that there is a huge push to mint said valueless token and stash ~$100M into the treasury…hopefully no one keeps trying to continue the “valueless” charade any longer, just to avoid potential sanctioning…actions speak much louder and claiming “valueless” while profiting won’t shield anyone.

Further…this whole “devs provide value vs holders don’t” argument and mint vs no mint debate has been fascinating to observe. Suppose we’d need to define value. The idea that those holding a token as nothing more than a show of project support, investment or seeking passive income are of no value couldn’t be more misguided. Anyone who understands enterprise and business knows that value takes many forms…and social capital is just as important as fiscal capital to the survival of any startup. And I don’t just mean # of followers and sm groups. In traditional markets (yes, we can learn a lot from the last 100 years of traditional finance)…passive shareholders are considered incredibly valuable…most of which simply hold shares (ownership interest) for dividends, income and appreciation. But why? Because they are the bedrock of support for the entire enterprise…they vote, they advocate, they maintain price support, they use and buy product, and provide countless other forms of intangible value. Don’t think there is much of an argument that only executives, builders and employees provide value in traditional organizations. Same holds true in crypto and DeFi…without customers and stakeholders (some passive, some active), neither has any value.

And yes, yearn is a company/organization…a decentralized org…with many of the same attributes, problems and benefits of traditional orgs.

Holders are massively important…you only need to look to the ~70% of dormant BTC to see the massive value they provide. Here is comes…“but YFI isn’t designed to be a store of value…it’s supposed to be used!”…bullshit. If you want pure utility…build an algo-stable pegged against fiat or BTC. Infinite velocity reduces valuation. YFI is the central store of all the value it’s ecosystem is creating…otherwise, there would be no desire to mint….segway…

Over the last decade, I’ve realized that crypto is at very real risk of becoming just like the fiat system in many respects. Need/want more money…print it! Devs=Feds…we hold the minting keys! Human nature doesn’t change because anon…just less accountability. Not that my personal opinion matters in macro-terms, but I believe builders and contributors should be compensated appropriately, just like executives and employees should be compensated…difference is, startups typically have to earn their paychecks from revenues after years of brutal start-up efforts. They don’t get to print/mint until they go public and have proven themselves and provided massive value for…you guessed it, share”holders” and customers. banteg said “The worst nightmare is building something cool but being underexposed so your face barely melts.” Welcome to the world of startups…95%+ work their arses off building something hoping to see a profit at some point but most never do. As we’ve seen for years in crypto, founders (typically devs) get massive protocol share upfront and profit on speculation, then often dump without building anything. Or they mint ~$100M or so and promise to provide value…then some do and some don’t. Got to be real…broke: @banteg constantly meme’ing minting, woke: @vasa constantly excited about what awesome vaults he’s building. It’s not about 3333 YFI, the dilution would have minimal impact…it’s about foundational principles…what does YFI really want to be? Provide the value, then use the profits to get paid…minting is the fiat solution. In the mean time, let the angels, investors and yes holders support and maintain YFI valuation…as we’ve been doing since day 1, based on the still largely unrealized potential of yearn. BTC has shown the importance of trustless capped supply…I knew Hal Finney and brain-stormed with Gavin Andresen…and they weren’t wrong

Let me be clear…a protocol should have as much or as little supply as it needs to meet its intended objectives. CORE has 10k limit, LINK has 1B, ADA has 45B…that’s not the issue…the issue is the after the fact reasoning regarding “treasury” (ie: funds we can mostly do whatever we want with) and that the initial fair launch caused current devs to feel like they don’t hold enough YFI. So why not pay them everything they deserve in buyback YFI from earned profits? Easier and faster to print…that’s a philosophical issue…the same one central banks use. Is that who we want to become?

If you’ve been a part of any startup…then you know that the equity is not promised, if offered at all to employees (Andre is the only founder, everyone else contributors/employees), and is typically vested over years…and all rounds are worth exactly zero until the venture is bought out or goes public…something very few ever achieve. Another words…usually have to put in years of hard work to build a successful mostly-baked business, and hope your options are worth something one day. Not, here’s a $100M to do with as you please…which by the way will never be enough…there will always be another good reason to mint more in the future. 80/20 rule is a nice rule of thumb, but arbitrary and not easily quantifiable…atm the hundreds of millions buying YFI for passive/speculative investment are providing as much, if not more fiscal value, to the token itself at this point, than the services currently provided by yearn at current valuation.

Not to say this won’t flip eventually, given the immense talent and building momentum…but just minting $100M in its first year, sets a dangerous precedent. Vesting would help, burning keys will help more. Read, react and adapt is important…but grasping for quick easy money strikes at the heart of a fundamental culture issue…what does yearn really stand for if its ground-breaking “fair-launch”, low supply and early indications to burn mint keys, simply transition into the same team allocation model as most every other project, just after the fact when its 100x (and after constantly spouting the “valueless” farce). The ideological clash we are seeing is due to more than just “what’s my profit”…it is because of expectations set and now reversed. Money is just a tool…principles define who and what you really are as an organization.

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Fabien has set up us Snapshot vote delegation for tomorrow’s vote. You can keep funds safe in a multisig like Gnosis Safe and vote from an EOA.

Go to Snapshot and delegate to an external account. Space can be either “yearn” or empty for all spaces. Same as staking in yGov, this needs to be done before the vote starts to have effect.

Delegate to ybaby.eth if you want to delegate to me.

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